This is the transcript of episode 6
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Today’s guest is Katy Casselli. Katy is a freelance Industrial and Organizational psychologist in North Carolina, and she specialises in communication and soft skills training.
Katy’s business is called buildinggiants.com – fantastic name. You can find her website at www.buildinggiants.com.
Hi Katy and welcome to the programme.
You’re based in the ‘Research Triangle Park’ area of North Carolina, near Raleigh and Durham. Is that right?
Yes, that’s right.
Are you from the area originally?
I’m not. I’m actually from California and always keeping an eye on the wild fires out there and just feel lucky out here that whenever there’s a fire it doesn’t go very far at all.
Our firefighters have it much easier here on this coast than they do in California.
I thought we’d talk because your background’s quite interesting. You’re an Industrial Psychologist or rather Industrial and Organizational Psychologist.
Yes, that’s correct.
Some people use the terms ‘Industrial Psychologist.’ Some say, ‘Organizational Psychologist,’ and others say, ‘Applied Psychologist.’
You describe yourself as both Industrial and Organizational.
Are there actual subtle differences between the two?
I don’t believe there really are. It’s quite a mouthful actually to say, ‘Industrial Organizational Psychologist,’ and some people abbreviate it to say ‘I-O Psychologist’ and some people just say, “Oh, I’m an Industrial Psychologist,’ and others say, “I’m an Organizational Psychologist.’
It gets a little confusing.
I generally try and abbreviate it a bit and just write out that I’m an Organizational Psychologist and then explain what that is.
Some people I’ve come across are calling themselves ‘Applied Psychologists.’
Basically, it just means that they’re using a scientific approach based on the psychology of how organisations should run and then using that to fix problems in organisations.
Right. So, as an Organizational or Industrial Psychologist, who typically needs your help?
It’s often companies who are a little bit ‘over their head’ in solving a people problem.
For example, I have a client who is having some pretty significant trouble with turnover and her organisation suffered about 43 per cent turnover for just the first half of the year.
So that’s a very significant, very expensive problem and so it’s those kinds of people who are finding these costly problems that they’re not sure what are the systems they need to apply to get out of that situation.
It’s companies that are maybe medium sized, don’t have someone who has some deep organizational development background or some deep recruiting background.
Some of those companies especially who maybe have a team of HR people that’s only one to five people large, and need some of that extra expertise to bail them out of a big problem.
And the thing that unites us – the thing we have in common – is that you could say we’re both in the world of learning and development.
You apply your Industrial and Organizational psychology to the world of learning.
I grew up with this training background which I loved.
What I love even more about Organizational psychology is that you can dive so much deeper into systems and really, you’re not applying just a temporary fix.
You’re looking to dive deep and find what are those problems that are going to really build this company stronger as time goes on and that’s extremely valuable.
If you can look back three years and say, “Wow! We used to be like this, and now we’re like this! We’re having so much more success and things are so much better.”
That’s the kind of systems approach that I like to apply.
How do we really take control of our employee life cycle or leadership problems and organizational structure and really make a deep impact and really show that something big has to change?
Right! You’ve extensive work experience as a Learning and Development Manager, an Operations Training Manager and a Senior HR Training and Development Manager. It’s quite a track record.
What motivated you to obtain a Master’s degree in Industrial and Organizational Psychology in the first place?
The funny thing is I’ve noticed there’s been some inflation around the need for higher education.
It used to be that a bachelor’s degree was fine and that would get you through your professional career. But the more I looked at opportunities the more I saw that they required a master’s degree.
So at some point I’m like, “I’m just going to have to bite the bullet and get that Master’s degree if I want to advance.”
I took a look around and I said to myself, “I could major in L&D,” but I already have ten years’ of experience at that point. I thought, “That sounds really boring.” I kept looking until I found just an advertisement that mentioned organizational psychology.
I said, “Aha! That’s it,” because I was always interested in psychology anyway and when I saw there was a formal discipline that would combine what I already knew in terms of organizational performance and human performance, and add more of that science-y element, I thought, “That’s really for me. That sounds really, really interesting.”
You know, Mark, a lot of people think the same way. In the United States it’s a small pool of people who are currently doing organizational psychology, but that pool is growing and projected to grow by over 50 per cent!
The Bureau of Labour Statistics are saying that I-O psychology is one of those very fast moving, fast growing jobs.
I really think that is absolutely warranted. Our HR culture has to, and is expected now, to move from that transactional ‘handle-this-problem’, ‘handle-that-problem’, to go towards this more strategic impactful change that they’re really partnering with the business for that big impact, I-O psychology is absolutely what’s going to take them there.
That scientific approach, that data-driven-metrics approach and the strategy of ‘what can we really get out of our workforce’, that’s what IO psychology brings.
So, when I noticed that, I said to myself “That’s what I’ve got to study right there.”
Would a trainer benefit from some kind of reading in the area?
They could go down the route of a formal qualification in the area, but is there anything that someone who is an ordinary trainer like myself could do to inform themselves more about the application or applied element of Organizational and Industrial psychology?
It’s funny you say that because I get the feedback that organizational psychology sounds like that which some people already do in the training industry.
What I don’t necessarily see in the typical training specialist or training manager is that ability to really take the business in a new direction, a new strategic direction.
When I do find people like that, I love it. I say to. myself, “Oh great. You’re doing all these things.” Yet the typical education in learning and development or the experience or simple certifications, don’t really get them to that level.
I think I-O psychology is an excellent field, but in terms of books or resources to get you there without the degree, I’m not really putting on my finger on anything except that there are some amazing books out there.
For example, what comes to mind is Return on Investment in Training and Performance Improvement Programs (Improving Human Performance) by Jack Philips.
That is a book that deepened my understanding incredibly about how to really bring that impact to training and when I did get around to getting my master’s and going through that curriculum, I did come across that material.
I know those books out there that can really get you going. Just the basics of needs -assessment, doing an excellent needs-assessment, being able to set up your training to show a result.
I find that for people in the training field, that kind of information is so, so critical in order to be able to show your value to the organization.
Yes! It’s literally a case of being able to say, “Look, hire me because I don’t just deliver the training. I can prove it actually has an effect on the bottom-line of the organisation.”
Yes! I mean with all my heart, that that is so important.
Let me just share a quick story. During this horrible recession which we had here in 2008, I was working for an automotive company.
Those were where the jobs disappeared first, and as we know, one of the jobs that’s at most peril in a recession is that of a trainer and other such types of support in an organization.
I started thinking, “Okay, that’s it. I’m losing my job.”
I survived two rounds of lay-offs and then I finally asked my boss, “How come you haven’t fired me yet?” He said, “Are you kidding me? You keep showing your value. You show us every day how you’re helping the business in dollars and cents.”
And it’s true. I had case-studies, I had examples of where I was saving them money and that’s the kind of knowledge I think has really driven my career.
To be a success is to be able to show easily and with no question about it, ‘here’s the money we saved with training. Here’s what we did with training. Here’s the impact.’
So, we went from a cycle-time of four to three. We generated a 400 per cent return on investment in three months on this equipment.
With leadership training, you can also tie that to dollars and cents. So that kind of information is – I would say – not only very critical for any learning and development to be able to show, but also to help training professionals to survive those lay-off times where leaning & development people are seen as extraneous and are let go.
I recently had a conversation with Kevin M Yates (who will be the subject of another episode of this podcast). He’s a specialist in data-driven analytics on learning performance.
We had a conversation around the area that very often training individuals, trainers, coaches, learning and development specialists etc. struggle to convince HR that they should not be the first to go when the organisation lays people off.
I think one of the reasons is – and you alluded to this – that typically between 60 and 90 per cent of training efforts appear to fail.
Herman Ebbinghaus (1885) who conducted research on the famous ‘Forgetting-Curve’ or ‘Retention Curve’ talked about the fact that when there’s no effective intervention to retain learning, consistently people tend to forget what they’ve learned.
But aside from the retention of information, why do you believe that training typically fails?
There are four reasons why training can fail.
I went to a conference trying to find out specifically how to teach my leaders to prevent that training failure. I came out of the conference with my head just spinning.
I was like “Oh my God, there’s so many ways that training could fail.”
And so I drew up a very simple model to help explain to leaders and I’ve been using that model now for about 12 years.
There are four parts to this. It’s very easy and it’s actually a visual model which we’re going to provide a link to on your website so the listeners can have that.
The first step is to do a great needs-assessment. The needs assessment does not have to be complicated. I boil mine down to simply a few questions.
The needs assessment basically can just be a single meeting where you’re working with the players who are involved in the lack of skills and are impacted by the lack of skills.
Ask these questions:
- What’s the business need?
- What has to change?
- What is the behavior that is going to have to change to support that business need?
- Which are the skills people need to change that behavior?
- What’s the right training environment for them to learn those new skills
There are very complicated models of doing a needs-assessment. I would not do those.
I would just do it the simple way because that’s the way your leaders and folks in your organisation are going to be able to understand and help you get that data.
The next step is to provide the training based on that needs assessment, and that’s usually where we focus everything.
Training is provided as the easy way to just address a problem, but if we haven’t done the needs-assessment yet, often times we’re throwing money away and time and effort and lots of energy where maybe training isn’t even the problem.
I’m often asked to provide a sales course, ‘Sales 101’, for a new sales team or deliver that as part of an organisation’s onboarding. Often, I ask the question “Okay, why is this needed? What is this designed to do in terms of performance and how do we measure it’s effectiveness?”
I’m sometimes met with blank faces.
It’s as if people think that I am trying to talk myself out of the job. The attitude seems to be ‘You’ve been asked to deliver the training, so just get on with it.’
Yeah, I’ve had that experience before as well, and often times I am stopped in the hall by someone who says”, “Hey, we need some training,”
What I do is, I say, “I’m sure I can help you with your problem, but let’s just sit down and talk about it a little bit more so I’m sure I can deliver you what you need.”
In my mind, I know it may not be a training problem, but I can probably still help them.
We may end up with training as a solution, but they want to make sure that training hits the objectives that is going to actually solve the business problem.
If they can’t define that business problem, then they’ll need some more help. I’m sure I can help them.
Yeah, I suppose it takes courage on the part of the training provider to look that gift horse in the mouth and to question someone’s rationale as to whether they really need training.
It’s tempting to leap up and say, “Of course, yes. I’m happy to do it. Here’s your leadership course and when can we start?” Whereas if you want a long-term business as a training provider, you really need to be thinking of the client’s interests and challenge them and say, “Is this really where your interests are best served? Could we perhaps step back a little and just do even a survey to understand where this is going to be most effective?”
Right. The needs-assessment helps you to figure out what’s going to happen after training too.
The behavioral-change that has to happen when they leave the classroom is out of the hands of the trainer in a lot of ways.
The hard part is that we don’t supervise our students. We can’t haul them out of a classroom and tell them what to do. The supervisors do that.
We have to have a really good partnership with the supervisors of the trainees so that they understand what they have to do to make that training work.
The problem is they see it as “Well, they went to class, so things should change.” But they are the ones who assign the work. They supervise their work, and so they have a huge role to play in whether or not training will actually succeed or not.
One of the things I do when I do classroom training is to provide a plan so that students have something to go on when they leave the classroom.
For example, if I’m doing Train the Trainer class, in the morning we pick something we’re going to do some training on and we start fleshing out their plan all through the day, so that by the end of the day they know how they’re going to open the class. They know how they’re going to set objectives.
They know how they’re going to assess whether or not people are learning or not – all that kind of thing throughout the day.
So, all they have to do is go out of class and execute their plan, but not a high percentage actually gets around to executing their plan and figuring out whether they’ve done it well or not.
That’s where a supervisor needs to say more than, “Hey, how was class? Glad you’re back. Now get back to work?” They need to say, “Okay, so you’ve got these new skills. Tell me your plan for how do you use it? Okay, so you went to Train the Trainer, let’s have you train three people in the next two weeks?”
You see the difference there? The involvement of the leader really has some good repercussions of whether a person will use those new skills or not.
Right. And frequently when training has succeeded in the long term in my experience, it’s when supervisors, line managers or senior managers have been involved. They may not have been in the same classroom, but they have received some element of that training so they know exactly what they’re supporting.
Let’s talk about your business for a moment.
Your business is called Building Giants. How did you come up with that name? It’s a great name, by the way.
It’s funny. I was part of a team where I was trying to get more people involved in supporting training and someone from the corporate office suggested calling it Building Giants.
And then we went back and forth a little bit with “Hey, what about Creating Giants? Building Giants? Creating Giants?
We ended up with Building Giants and then years later I still remembered that name and I said, “It really resonates with me. I’m going to use it for my business name.”
So basically, the inspiration came from a team way back when.
What motivated you to strike out on your own?
We talked on early on about your career as Operations Training Manager, Senior HR Training Manager and so on.
What motivated you to just up sticks and say, “I’m going to do my own thing?”
Actually, I was pushed into it kicking and screaming, which is funny because now I couldn’t imagine doing anything else.
At the time I was working for an organization, nice and safe with my salary and my benefits and everything, but it was rather a frustrating culture and there were quite a lot of disagreements going on.
I took stock many times leading up to that, thinking, “You know what? I have so much experience, I have so much expertise, I have a great work ethic and I could probably do all of this working for myself.” But the fear was really holding me back.
And so once I realised that it was really fear and that there was nothing beyond that but fear, I decided it was time.
So, after about maybe 19 years of working for big global corporations I decided I’m going to exit the stress, exit that frustration and try something new, and decided that fear just didn’t have the weight it used to have with me.
It’s not as if my first six months or eight months were real easy, but the more I worked and the more I built the business, the better I felt.
And then sure enough I became profitable at about month 11, I think it was just in time before I had to use my retirement funds but it all went smoothly from there.
After that I felt so good about it. I joke around with people that I’m a good boss, I approve all the vacation requests and raises.
All those in favor say ‘Aye! Approved!’
It’s so relaxing to work out of my home and to the point where I only need to really work three or four days a week and maybe only one day a week in the classroom.
The other times I maybe have meetings or do some follow up work or something like that.
I have plenty of time for my kids and my ill father. I have the time to do what I need to do, and I do travel quite a bit too.
It was way too long when I decided I had all the skills I needed. That’s when I probably should have started thinking more seriously about it, but it really took this frustrating and stressful time to really make me think “Okay, I’m going to do it,”
Have there been any challenges on a day to day basis in running your own business?
I’d say that is definitely normal. Things happen. Cancellations happen. Problems with contracts happen. Things like that, but every time I encounter something like that, I learn from it and then it’s just not a problem any more.
So, it’s almost like the learning-curve was steep at first. The confidence was always there, but after a certain point it just became so much easier.
So I know the first six months is really the hardest and that’s when I think other friends of mine have dropped out of their efforts.
If you have a good business model and you know that learning every day is going to get you stronger at things like marketing and stuff like that, then if you can hang in there I’d say this is really more of a better thing for you than if you’re suffering in a very stressful environment where you’re not feeling appreciated or well paid.
And really no one’s going to give you permission to succeed. No one’s going to tap you on the back and say, “Oh, by the way you’re good enough to do your own thing.”
Exactly. You have to tell yourself.
So setting goals and telling yourself you can do it, those are the two main elements of succeeding as an entrepreneur and anyone can do that. Anyone can set a goal and tell themselves that they can do it.
If things change that’s fine. Keeping going towards your goal is so important.
Let’s say that someone is listening to this and says, “I like the sound of this and they want to work with you.”
Can you describe a typical project with a client who maybe calls you up? They find themselves referred to you. What would be a typical project from beginning to end?
Let’s talk about the topic of leadership transformation.
Let’s say we have a client who calls me and says, “I have a problem with my leadership. They don’t seem to be all at the same level.”
“Some seem to be checked out. Some just don’t seem to be doing their jobs.”
“Others are excellent, and we’re just all over the place and we want more of our leaders to be exemplary and drive the business forward towards our goals.”
Then we’d have a conversation about what those goals are and about some of the situations that are a problem because of leadership.
It could be that people aren’t delegating or they’re not listening, or they’re being accused of favoritism or they have people complaining about them. Those are the kind of typical things.
What I do is I’d start to form a tentative plan almost like a hypothesis. So if we’re going back to the science topic, then you want to make sure that you are being objective as much as possible.
You don’t want to bring your own past history into a situation in an organisation you’ve never actually walked into.
So, you need to be very objective and ask lots of questions and start to test this theory that you’re forming, to say “Based on your experience this is what I think might work in your situation and this is what I think is missing in those behaviours and this is how I think we can go forward and make improvements.”
You also have to figure out if the client is really ready to take some risks and also if you have the right people in the room.
So if you’re talking to just one person, like a HR Manager or Director, and saying, “Here’s what I think we should do,” it’s still a hypothesis. You still have to run that by other people in the organisation to see if they see the situation in the same way.
So consulting is like that. We’re basically trying to manage (without any real authority) a group of people who are looking to go in different directions but hope for the same outcome.
It’s very interesting and it takes lots of time and thought, but what an I-O Psychologist can bring to the table is this best practice.
I once had a client who said, “I’m not listening to anyone who’s learnt this stuff out of a book. I want someone who’s been there on the ground and in this situation.”
And so building credibility is a big part of being a business owner. Being able to prove “Hey, I have seen situations like this. I’ve seen worse. I’ve seen better. I’ve seen this kind of disagreement and the resistance.” I’ve seen all that.
So, being able to convince people that you are the right person to help them out of that problem is a huge part of your day to day work.
It helps when you have something like a I-O Psychology degree. It helps when you’ve had 20 years of experience.
It helps when you’ve been in multiple industries, but if you don’t have all that you can still help.
You can still find ways to build that credibility and build relationships and that’s what a lot of the day-to-day work is actually.
You mentioned a key word there, ‘relationships,’ which brings the word ‘marketing’ to mind.
You’re a business owner. So, when it comes to generating business for your company, what has been the single most effective method or channel for you?
I used to sit down with a pair of mentors. I had access to free mentorship through the city of Raleigh and I signed up when I first started my business.
We were writing back and forth. We eventually sat down face to face and we had a nice long talk and at the end of they said, “Wow, you getting in front of people is the only way you can convince people of their value because getting in front of people, hearing your voice, hearing you talk, that is much more compelling than what you can ever write or put into an ad or put on a Facebook or a Twitter feed or anything like that.’
And so I remember realizing I needed to get in front of people.
I started to set up meetings. I started to get in front of small audiences.
I gave free talks.
I got myself invited to organisations of HR people and training people to be able to market my model and my book and started to get recognised.
Even in a store I was recognised by someone who went to my lectures.
The free talks don’t make money for me, but they help to have people say, “Oh, here’s that person who spoke to me and what she said really resonated with me. I’m going to give her a call.”
I started speaking at meetings and then graduated to speaking at conferences and I continually try to get some spots so that I can get in front of people.
In fact, what I’m going to do in a few months is to book my first booth at a trade show.
I’ll be trying to tell potential customers about what I can do for them.
If someone listening to this is thinking, “You know what? That sounds fantastic,” how would someone go about getting themselves invited to the panel of speakers at a conference or some networking event?
I’ll tell you, it’s not as easy as it sounds.
In the last three years (I’ve only been running the business for three years) I’ve probably had about 20 speaking opportunities in front of audiences which I don’t know.
For example, there’s the Society for HR Management here in the United States and then there’s this Association for Talent Development which is international.
I believe the Society for HR is also international. These are excellent organizations.
The most valuable time at such events is just afterwards when people come up to you and say, “Heck, that really was helpful. I can’t believe what I just learned here and I can’t believe what I’ve been doing wrong.”
Those conversations lead to “Hey, let’s have a talk later on and have a free consultation” or something like that.
That’s where you start to really get to know people and build a relationship, so you can help them out.
What I find though is that when I put a blog out there or something like that, occasionally people will read it, but they won’t necessarily engage as much as when I’ve been able to use my voice or my presence to lay out a convincing argument, and answer what they’re looking for.
So, people who come to my meetings or my conferences are a captive audience literally.
Although you can reach a heck of a lot of people via blog posts, a lot of is just not going to be found or picked up when you want it to be
Maybe your content will be sitting somewhere on the web for two or three years before someone looks for that specific thing and finds your content.
Therefore, I believe that getting in front of people has really worked for me.
You also mentioned the word ‘book.’
You’ve written a book. It’s called Building Giants – A proven system to transform your workforce through effective training.
What motivated you to write this book?
I’m guessing that it’s an excellent calling card.
That’s the first thing that comes to mind, but what else motivated you to write this book and who could read it and get value from it?
The book was something I wrote while I was still working for an organization and I was getting more and more unhappy working for that organization. I realized that there was some information which I had which could really, really help organisations.
That’s where that frustration was coming in. So I said “You know what? Other people are going to appreciate this. I’m going to go ahead and write it down.”
I was in a daily car-pool where we just let others drive for us to go in and out of the plant and I had 45 minutes each way to sit there and write my book.
It was an amazing use of time. By the time I did ultimately quit the book was almost complete.
So, my first month or three after I left the organisation was dedicated just to finishing that book.
When you write a book, you acquire credibility because you are an author. But my main aim for writing that book was to help people like me.
If was to go back in time, this is the information I wish I knew.
How to build impact, How to really show that something has changed for the business because of my actions.
And so, this book – Building Giants – shows people like me exactly how to do it and also leaders in organisations.
It’s not just the trainers who make this change. The leaders have a huge part of that.
I was hoping that manufacturing and distribution of all organisations would read this and realise, “Oh, this is why training is going to waste. This is why it’s not working. It’s because I’m not doing these specific steps.”.
I guess if you went back in my time machine – and I have one by the way. I lend it to people now and again – you’d obviously write the book sooner, I guess, and you would probably strike-out on your own sooner.
Is there anything else you’d do differently because this is usually of great interest to people contemplating starting their own training business.
What would you give in terms of advice to your younger self?
It’s funny, when I first got into the training field it was an accidental move.
I was working for a pharmaceutical company and the food and drug administration really criticized our training. They suggested that we weren’t training our people.
The company opened created several training jobs and I said “That sounds fun. I’ll go into it.”
When I first looked at my first room full of training delegated, I started to talk, I said to myself, “What am I, stupid? What am I doing? I’m going to talk to a bunch of people. I’m introvert and I’m shy. How can I do this?”
At first I was pretty dreadful at it. I didn’t look people in the eye. I wasn’t loud enough. I wasn’t clear enough and I read from my slides. All those dreadful things that we do when we first start out.
One of the things I wish I could have done first is probably go to Toastmasters or some kind of organisation that would have helped me to improve my speaking skills right off the bat, because I think at first I almost thought, “I can’t do this
I should also have worked on my presentation skills.
But one thing that really helped me out was feedback. The more feedback I got, the better I got. .
I was three years into my career before someone asked, “How do you know your training is effective?”
Three years of doing training where I really had no idea if it was helping or not!
After that, I realized: ‘Okay, this is the critical thing. I have to learn how to make training effective. I have to do a needs assessment. I have to do training that is designed to transfer out of a job. I have to make sure that training transfers out of a job and I have to measure the results of that training and show it off.’
So, when I first realized that, I set about trying to figure out how to set up training to show a result and when I had that result, that was the most powerful thing.
I was able to show the organisation how we spent $6000 on training at this one point, and I was able to show that we got $24,000 dollars returned on investment in three months.
When I showed that to the organisation everything changed. They were much more supportive of training. They were much more interested in supporting training. They were much more interested in giving us money for our budget.
When training budgets shrink, it can be very disheartening. The more you show what that training does for the business, the more support you should get.
So that’s what I wish I knew because I could have done that three, four more years.
Looking to the future then, where is Building Giants going to be in let’s say two years’ time?
My goal is to improve how many clients I get for organizational psychology.
I’ve got plenty of clients to do classroom training.
I do leadership training quite a lot. I do Train the Trainer and Anti-Harassment is very popular these days, so I’m doing a lot of that.
What I’d love to do more is more of the organizational psychology by Skype.
One of the limits I have is that I’m only licensed to do it in North Carolina and I’m licensed to consult anywhere else of course. I can always consult.
So that’s part of the business where I’m trying to grow a little bit more so that I can not travel as much, do a little bit more of the Skyping thing and kick back at home a little bit more and not have to worry so much about travel.
I do love being in the classroom though because it’s almost like I have co-workers again.
One of the things about working for yourself is it’s a little bit lonely.
Being in the classroom is so much fun because we’re so energetic and very much laughing all day long.
We’re in our seats only about half the time. Other times we’re doing flipchart stuff or team building or dropping ink capsules or whatever – fun stuff!
But it’s also exhausting.
Where can our listeners find out more about you and Building Giants?
You can go to my website at buildinggiants.com and look for my book on Amazon.
You can also give me a call.
If anyone wants a free consultation just to work through some problems, they should absolutely give me a call.
My number is in the States is (919)-564-6855
I’ll put all those details in the show notes for the episode.
It’s been wonderful talking to you, Katy.
Thank you very much for coming on the programme.
You’re welcome, Mark, and good luck to everyone out there.
I know you guys are in tough positions sometimes. Just hang in there and think about just modelling your life after your ideal.
And with learning and development the sky is a limit. You have so much leverage to make so much impact.